Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

ObsidianLotus

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Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« on: June 14, 2006, 07:35:43 AM »

I recently rewatched the Animatrix back-histories of the Matrix and realized there were several fatal flaws that would make the progression of the Machines (and therefore the creation of the Matrix) beyond certain events impossible.

First (which I discussed with Pyroclasam and SilkPhoenix last night), in first part of the history, it is stated that after the Machines created 01, their "artificial intelligence could be seen in every facet of man's society including, eventually, the creation of new and better AI."

Now, this could be interpreted in a couple of different ways, but the way I understand it, the Machines were the ones who developed "new and better AI." With the anti-Machine sentiment as it was at that time in the Matrix history (following the murder trial of B1-66ER), I cannot see any humans helping the Machines to develop better AI. Further, it says a few seconds later, "All industries concentrate in 01" (with "household electric appliances, automotive, computer, medical" listed underneath), so it seems that humans have gotten out of the manufacturing sector altogether.

Based on this interpretation of events, it is my contention that AIs creating "new and better AI" is impossible. The reason is that it would be impossible for an AI to improve itself beyond the sum of its experiences. Even if the experiences of every AI were combined, it still would not be able to develop beyond the sum of them.

As an example, imagine if a person who was born blind was given the power and ability to create his own eyes. Without any experience how eyes even work, what kind of sensory input the eyes give to the brain, how would a blind person do this? Sure, the blind person can have the world described to him, but even if the world were described in excruciating detail, his "mind's eye" view of things would be drastically different from that of a sighted person. What does "orange" look like to someone who has never seen it (and cannot sense it through the other senses)? Even though this person's other senses are more sensitive than normal to compensate for the lost of sight, sight would still be something outside the sum of this person's experiences.

(Incidentally, I've had a related experience to this when I was trying to explain what I enjoyed about one of my favorite pieces of music to a friend who was born deaf. Since we do not share a common set of experiences, there's no way to properly communicate to her what the music is like.)

Likewise, it is impossible for an AI to create an AI better than itself because it lacks the experience needed to make improvements. The best it could do would be to make a clone of itself. The result cannot be greater than the sum of its experiences.

The second fatal flaw comes at the beginning of the second part of the history in which the humans bombed 01 with nuclear weapons, engulfing it "in the glow of a thousand suns." It then states that "...the machines had little to fear of the bombs' radiation and heat." This is laughably impossible. The material with the highest melting point is carbon, which melts at around 7280–8000 °F. In comparison, the core of the earth is about 7000 ºF and the surface of the sun is about 9900-11000 ºF (if you can get past the 1.5-2 million degree corona). Thermonuclear explosions (H-bombs) produce temperatures in the tens of millions of degrees, which is hotter than the core of the sun. The sustained thermonuclear bombardment to which 01 was subjected would have vaporized anything within. The Machines had much to fear from the bombs' heat.

The third, and most deadly fatal flaw is related to this. A thermonuclear explosion doesn't only release heat and radiation, but also produces an electromagnetic pulse (EMP), which fries electrical equipment when the gamma-ray burst induces current many times normal levels. This high current destroys the sensitive electronics that would be inside the computers and networks that control the machines. During the time of the Matrix, humans used this to great effect as a weapon against the Machines, disabling the attacking Sentinels. Electronics can be shielded against EMP, but apparently the Machines don't make use of this shielding, as evidenced by the effectiveness of the EMP weapon in the trilogy, which is in a period of greater technological advancement (at least for the Machines) than is the Human-Machine war.

Any one of these fatal flaws alone would make the creation of Matrix improbable, but the three in any combination make the creation of the Matrix absolutely impossible.

So, if the creation of the Matrix could not and thus did not happen, then what is the truth about where we are? What, therefore, is the Matrix, the Real World, and even Zion itself?

Things that make you go, "Hmmm..."


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missmercury

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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2006, 02:37:39 PM »

Well written, Lotus!

/ponder


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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2006, 03:01:44 PM »

:mutters to himself as he walks away:
Well AI was made by man in the first place... and well humanity is flawed...

.... >.> ... <.< No Comment


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DABOMBZ

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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2006, 03:18:06 PM »

wow... you put a lot of thought into this.... ummm all i can say is... glow of a thousand suns = metaphorical

dun take it literally I think they meant, ITS REALLY REALLY HOT! buh hot enough for the machines to survive ^_^ hehehe


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Brewca

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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2006, 04:07:51 PM »

Sorry to rain on your parade but....

....its a movie.


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Roma

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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2006, 07:10:14 PM »

Maybe I didn't understand this correct, but I don't really agree with the first point you're trying to make.

That's like saying how can someone make a car if they don't have any knowledge on how to do it prior? Well, we have cars today. Obviously someone did it. They learn ways of doing things. Ways of improving.

Doesn't seem like a problem to me? I'm a nuff though so meh.

I agree with your points on the nukes though. Especially the EMP stuff.


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ObsidianLotus

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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2006, 07:21:32 PM »

Quote from: "DABOMBZ"

ummm all i can say is... glow of a thousand suns = metaphorical

dun take it literally I think they meant, ITS REALLY REALLY HOT! buh hot enough for the machines to survive ^_^ hehehe

Well, I'm not taking it litterally, but I take it to mean that many (hundereds or even thousands of) thermonuclear detonations occurred over 01, with overlapping footprints enough to cover the entire city. The thermal radiation produced by the thermonuclear explosion is still vastly greater than the melting point of carbon, so the Machines would have little chance of surviving.

Quote from: "Brewca"

....its a movie.

Yes, I know, but as long as we're playing a computer game based within the universe created in those movies, why not have some fun with thought exercizes?

Quote from: "Roma"

That's like saying how can someone make a car if they don't have any knowledge on how to do it prior? Well, we have cars today. Obviously someone did it. They learn ways of doing things. Ways of improving.

The difference is that a car has a limited function. It does a few things and does them well (well, most cars do). But an artificial intelligence is a whole different matter. It is not as limited as a car or other single- (or even multi-) use objects.

Think about the design process behind creating a thinking computer. Tasks that we do with ease are an extremely complex set of steps for a computer. For instance, what do we need to do to take a drink from a cup? It comes pretty easily to us, doesn't it? Pick up the cup, put it to your mouth, tilt it so the liquid flows into your mouth, swallow. But for a computer, there are a lot of steps within those major steps that our brain does "behind the scenes."

The brain tells us:

where to position your hand to grab the cup
how much to move each joint to achieve that motion
how much to move the fingers to grasp the cup
how much pressure to apply to ensure that you can pick up the cup
how much pressure is needed to lift the cup
how to bend the arm to bring the cup to your mouth
how fast to move the cup towards your face
how to angle the cup so it is at the proper position for drinking
how fast to rotate it so the liquid doesn't come splashing out
and many, many other small calculations we don't even think about

A computer has to "think" about each and every one of these steps and more. If any of these steps are done incorrectly, then the cup could be crushed, thrown over your head, smashed into your face, spilled down your front, and so forth. Then what happens if something unexpected happens? Humans can easily (for the most part) compensate for unexpected situations because we have thousands of years worth of experience and evolution to fall back on (usually). If something entirely new happens, we adapt and learn.

But for a machine, it's not as easy to adapt to and overcome unexpected situations, especially those that are outside of its experiences (even the sum of all the experiences of all the computers/Machines). It would require a human to program it with the basic human knowledge needed to adapt to the situation.

So, with this limitation on a human-programmed AI, how could an AI-programmed AI be improved over its predicessor? It doesn't have the built-in "memory" (either through experience or genetics) that humans have to allow it to improve upon itself.

Even with a human-programmed AI, there'd still be some programmer somewhere saying, "Darn, I should have added such-and-such function for such-and-such situation." This is something outside of the abilities of an AI to do for its successors.

There's more to it than what I've stated here, but I'm way, way, way past my bedtime and coherent thought is not high on my brain's priority list right now. 8O

I will continue to think about this, however. Cheesy


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DABOMBZ

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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2006, 11:03:08 PM »

Ai's can adapt to their environments. All based on sensors, take a simple scout robot for example. It goes around scouting the area and it has so many opportunities to completley render itself useless. For example it can fall over a cliff, or flip over due to going too fast. Thats what sensors are used for speed, direction, acceleration and so on and so fourth.

Using your drinking out of a cup example. I agree with you when you said that it comes easily for us. However, It can be just as easy for an AI to perform this. Truth be told I'm not a huge math fan but everything around us consists of maths and equations. Forming those equations for AI's is not a problem. Take simple calculus per say, you can figure out the trajectory of an arc using the parabolic formula allowing you to make a "U" motion. (anyone who knows what a parabola is, knows what i'm talking about). Now you wonder how the machines might adapt to this. Sensors, cameras, whether they be movement sensors or anything else. Math is your friend. back to the cup drinking example. If the machines were built with enough sensors and I'm sure they were programmed with mathematical formulas in the form of arrays, it is possible for them to advance in terms of AI.

You said the machines can only have the amount of knowledge equal to the sum of there current knowledge. I disagree, Going back to my previous point about sensors and cameras and other cute little gizmos and what not. If a "learning" string of code was put in, which basically allows the machines to learn things as they see it, advancing AI is possible. Just as we increase our knowledge by reading, writing or going to school, the machines can do the same. However, there is one downfall to this. We have a conscience and machines do not. This fundamental flaw is what will always seperate us. The concept of "good" and "bad" so to say. oh and ofcourse "memory" or "ram" so to say has to be infinite for this to occur but thats assuming they had sufficient resources

.

Meh! I'm just drawing on from what I learned in comp programming hehe and just some ideas I had. Don't mind me, its 9 am and I'm running offa 4 hours of sleep hehe.

ciaaooo


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Roma

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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2006, 11:18:54 PM »

The thing I've always seen about the AI in Matrix is it feels like we're supposed to believe they're people too. They're not just mindless machines, they've evolved themselves to become a "real" species.

Personally I don't think we're in a point where we can say "No. That can't happen." Especially if you consider how far technology has come over the past 50 years. Give it another 100 or so and who knows where and how things have progressed.

Going on a slight tangent, I remember hearing about groups which had developed robots which actually "learn" stuff. Just doing a quick google, I came across a site which included the following:

"our robots do not require that computer programs be written by human beings. Given very broad goals, such as the objective of moving forward, the robot learns to walk from the lessons of its own self-generated experiments. The autonomous development of other robotic skills proceed in the same general way, such as in finding a pre-specified target within the robot's environment. Essentially, the robot experiments with a number of self-conceived approaches to the problem, cumulatively learning from its successes and failures to attain its goals."

I could see someday with further development AI getting to the point where it doesn't fully need us anymore (except as batteries HUURRR) and can manage to develope itself. As more and more artificial programs develope themselves the process speeds up.

Probably quite some time off before real progress is made, but I seriously can't see any points raised here that suggest it's a fatal flaw?

Once again, unless I'm looking at this all wrong and missing the point of what you're trying to say?


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Brewca

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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2006, 12:55:29 AM »

I'm in agreeance with Rom and DB about the evolution stuff. It seems to me that the machines present now in the Matrix universe are the descendents of "lesser" machines. The modern day ones evoled and adapted to there enviroment.
The machines presented to us through the Animatrix and The Matrix looked to be like sentient creatures, perhaps there predecessors were less sentient and had less AI with a few additives from the humans they took on a more human like quality which included the ability to grow and think on there own.

So yeah, the first machines created were stupid, much like the robots we have now, not able to think on there own and/or without some form of human intervention. Then humans added more sophisticated AI and left them to go on by themselves, which they did when they packed up shop and trundled off to 01. From there they adapted and evolved, becoming more sentient and aware.

Now i'm going to bed, its too late to discuss this now. Need sleep.


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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2006, 01:54:50 AM »

Quote from: "ObsidianLotus"

Based on this interpretation of events, it is my contention that AIs creating "new and better AI" is impossible. The reason is that it would be impossible for an AI to improve itself beyond the sum of its experiences. Even if the experiences of every AI were combined, it still would not be able to develop beyond the sum of them..............

............Likewise, it is impossible for an AI to create an AI better than itself because it lacks the experience needed to make improvements. The best it could do would be to make a clone of itself. The result cannot be greater than the sum of its experiences.

The original AI was created and designed by man, who are fundamentally flawed. If you look at the designs of the robots prior to them making themselves, they were created in mans likeness and image, they basically had human forms. Our own society now has a tendency to give their attempts at AI human characteristics and appearences in an effort to make them more relatable to humans.
This I find illogical for that, in creating 'artificial' intelligence, we should not have to be confined to merely the sum of our own experiences, ie. A design for a robot should not be constrained, either in it's appearence or it's function, by the biological rules and restrictions that we ourselves face. As of yet, and as shown by tSR, humans still havn't been able to get around that..
However, create a machine with Artificial Intelligence, give it the ability to learn, adapt and an infinate capacity to process and store data.. I don't find it difficult in the least to believe that they could create better versions of themselves.
They touched on this in Part I of tSR, by showing the result of the Machines taking over the manufacturing sector. They started creating new and better products, previously unseen and unmade by humans. eg. The Versatran (The new hover car that combined the flexibility of a Hovercraft and the speed of a Leer Jet) This was somthing that had previously not existed, but that the machines, who deal solely in mathmatics, facts, statistics and calculations were able to create. That they should be able to discern and deal with their own design flaws, comes as no surprise to me. It is merely analytical processing that could take an objective look at the equation..
a + b =c
And said mind, unrestricted by a biological thought process, could see.. that though a + b = c...
a + (b x d) - e still equals 'c', but that 'c' is now more efficient, or faster, or can do more calculations.. etc.
Instilling those findings and changes in future generations and designs would be the next logical step in that, and so begins the evolution of Machines.

Quote

The second fatal flaw comes at the beginning of the second part of the history in which the humans bombed 01 with nuclear weapons, engulfing it "in the glow of a thousand suns." It then states that "...the machines had little to fear of the bombs' radiation and heat." This is laughably impossible. The material with the highest melting point is carbon, which melts at around 7280–8000 °F. In comparison, the core of the earth is about 7000 ºF and the surface of the sun is about 9900-11000 ºF (if you can get past the 1.5-2 million degree corona). Thermonuclear explosions (H-bombs) produce temperatures in the tens of millions of degrees, which is hotter than the core of the sun. The sustained thermonuclear bombardment to which 01 was subjected would have vaporized anything within. The Machines had much to fear from the bombs' heat.

The third, and most deadly fatal flaw is related to this. A thermonuclear explosion doesn't only release heat and radiation, but also produces an electromagnetic pulse (EMP), which fries electrical equipment when the gamma-ray burst induces current many times normal levels. This high current destroys the sensitive electronics that would be inside the computers and networks that control the machines. During the time of the Matrix, humans used this to great effect as a weapon against the Machines, disabling the attacking Sentinels. Electronics can be shielded against EMP, but apparently the Machines don't make use of this shielding, as evidenced by the effectiveness of the EMP weapon in the trilogy, which is in a period of greater technological advancement (at least for the Machines) than is the Human-Machine war.

This is all based on the assumption that Nuclear warheads were used in the bombing of 01. No where in the tSR I or II does it state that. (I had to go back and check to make sure) Given the amount of bombs they had intended to use, I would have been surprised if they had used Nuclear weapons. (Providing that Nuclear weapons were still being developed and employed at that point in time, which there is no evidence to suggest) I would think that rather then making an insurmountably huge radioactive scar on the planets surface, which would have had countless effects in the century to come, they would have steered clear of that and opted for other means and weapons that would have had less permanent reprecussions.


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DABOMBZ

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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2006, 04:49:09 AM »

*points Rei to the dark sky above* hehehe Tongue

*huggles*


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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2006, 11:12:49 AM »

Very true, but they only decided to burn the sky after all other options had been exhausted and they felt there was no other course open to them. At that point, they obviously felt no qualms about destroying the planet on the off chance they might succeed.
::shakes her head::


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Denolus

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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2006, 12:37:47 AM »

I <3 Rei


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DABOMBZ

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Re: Fatal Flaws in The Matrix's History

« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2006, 02:07:38 AM »

ehhe, and here we are Sad


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